« More Browbeating | Main | The International Journal of Comic Art »

May 12, 2004

Comments

Matthew Rossi

Waits for Jess to come along and respond to *this* one.

Jason Kimble

Moreau was definitely a flaw in my argument, as I think I focused on the scene at the train station (re: the gypsy woman) to the exclusion of other obvious actions that bely the civil high ground he tries to claim.

You're also quite right to point to Nemo's absence in my discussion. I couldn't for the life of me work out how he fit into the thesis I'd developed, yet the thesis seemed to work so well up until I hit Nemo. The Moriarty parallel works nicely, though, in finding the monster in Nemo I couldn't identify.

Jess Nevins

I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment (interviewing someone today and under deadline pressure), but I'll say this and try do a longer response tomorrow: Moore's stated purpose with much of both volumes was -satire-. Having Mina assaulted in the opium den was a satire of the Victorian "fate worse than death." Whether it's effective satire is another thing, but satire was Moore's intent. I realize authorial intent ain't all that, but if we're going to make interpretations about what Moore meant to do we should keep the satirical intent in mind.

Otherwise--interesting stuff, and once I'm free of things I'll try to write a response.


Greg Morrow

It is quite conceivable that Jeckyl both wants to fuck men and is a prostitute's regular. Modern homosexuality is something of a cultural construct of the past century or so (a consequence of not having a name prior; nothing that lacks a name can be defined). Modes of sexual expression arise from biological impulses, but have a lot of cultural construct in how they're expressed.

For an unmarried man of a certain class in the Victorian era, patronizing prostitutes might be the accepted means of partnerless sexual relief in contrast to masturbation. Jeckyl might want to have a lover who's a man, but he doesn't have a lover, so he gets off with prostitutes.

Of course, I don't actually know anything.

Jess Nevins

I finally wrote up my reactions to what was written and posted them in my LiveJournal here:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ratmmjess/62985.html#cutid1

jess

Marc

A couple of thoughts in response to Jess's cogent comments.

First, I think you're absolutely right that Hyde's rape of Griffin is an act of vengeance and humiliation, not sexual desire. Nevertheless, I wonder if Moore isn't also using that act as a further demonstration that Hyde embodies Jekyll's unrestrained drives, including sexual drives; it seems more than coincidental that he rapes Griffin in the same issue he confesses Jekyll's desire for men. In that close juxtaposition, Griffin's rape serves as "evidence" of Jekyll's sexuality even if it should only confirm Hyde's malice.

On the vaguely related subject of rape and satire. Good satire manages to convey the author's normative view of how the world or characters ought to operate; while we can reasonably assume Moore doesn't favor rape, nothing in his treatment of the repeated sexual assaults suggests that writers (Victorian or present day) shouldn't be subjecting female characters to the kind of treatment Mina gets. I don't buy it as literary metacriticism.

At most, LoEG seems to parody certain practices of Victorian fiction, as with Rosa Coote's academy. (Although Griffin's willy-nilly rape of every teenaged female character he can get his hands on is still disturbing; this suggests another motivation for his fate, that of karma.) I don't really see the satire in attacking Mina twice in the first issue.

Rose

Marc,

I wrote rather vaguely about my problems with the sexual assualts on our old blog and while I wouldn't say it the same way now, the issue does still trouble me for basically the reasons you pointed out, that there seems to be too much assault and not enough criticism.

Jess Nevins

You: "First, I think you're absolutely right that Hyde's rape of Griffin is an act of vengeance and humiliation, not sexual desire. Nevertheless, I wonder if Moore isn't also using that act as a further demonstration that Hyde embodies Jekyll's unrestrained drives, including sexual drives; it seems more than coincidental that he rapes Griffin in the same issue he confesses Jekyll's desire for men. In that close juxtaposition, Griffin's rape serves as "evidence" of Jekyll's sexuality even if it should only confirm Hyde's malice."

Me: I suppose. I guess, for me, it's a case of "What's foremost in Hyde's mind?" I think the urge for power/degradation is foremost, and rape is simply the vehicle (albeit a pleasurable one, for him) by which to achieve that. (I also think that, if Moore and O'Neill had been publishing the book through an independent publisher, Griffin's death would have been a *lot* worse).

But you might well be right, too.

Actually, I now remember that I asked Moore about this:

"When I was thinking the scene through, I thought, “What would Hyde do if he got hold of Griffin?” And the answer was, “The worst possible thing. And when he’d done that he’d think of the next worst possible thing.” And he would do all of them. And rape was obviously somewhere along the line of the spectrums of the very bad things to do to the Invisible Man. And it was something that would occur to Hyde. Hyde’s a monster. And terrifying, brutalizing, murdering people, that’s something which is kind of cozy to him"

You: "On the vaguely related subject of rape and satire. Good satire manages to convey the author's normative view of how the world or characters ought to operate; while we can reasonably assume Moore doesn't favor rape, nothing in his treatment of the repeated sexual assaults suggests that writers (Victorian or present day) shouldn't be subjecting female characters to the kind of treatment Mina gets. I don't buy it as literary metacriticism."

Me: It was Moore's stated intention, though. Whether it's -good- satire is another question. I don't particularly think it is. But I do believe that Moore intended it to be.

Me: I'd have said, btw, that good satire illuminates the (intellectually/emotionally/spiritually) flawed aspects of the target and exaggerates them until they become obviously ridiculous. In that sense, I think, the attempted rape scene in the opium den does somewhat work--an exaggeratedly Victorian Female woman, racistly exaggerated Arabs, and an exaggerated opium den, all quite similar to stories (less explicitly told, naturally) in penny dreadfuls and story papers.

You: "At most, LoEG seems to parody certain practices of Victorian fiction, as with Rosa Coote's academy. (Although Griffin's willy-nilly rape of every teenaged female character he can get his hands on is still disturbing; this suggests another motivation for his fate, that of karma.) I don't really see the satire in attacking Mina twice in the first issue."

Me: I believe Moore when he says that he intended it satirically. But I don't think it works well as satire. The criticism we expect to see from satire is lacking. Moore, I think, sees it as something we're automatically going to understand and will supply for ourselves.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Blog powered by Typepad
Member since 03/2004